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CO-OWNERSHIP - IS IT A LIABILITY? MY EXPERIENCE CO-OWNING "DRAKYI" TIMBERLINE MOXIE.

IT'S PUPPY SEASON - BUYER BEWARE!!!!!!

PLEASE UPGRADE

BEWARE OF BREEDERS SELLING "ANONYMOUSLY" ON LARGE PUPPY SELLING SITES. I HAVE FOUND THAT THE MAJORITY OF THESE TYPE OF BREEDERS DO NOT DISCLOSE THEIR NAME, LOCATION, OR KENNEL NAME BECAUSE THEY ARE BEING DECEPTIVE AND DISHONEST. AVOID BREEDERS WHO REQUIRE YOU "UPGRADE TO VIEW MY COMPLETE PROFILE". WHAT ARE THEY HIDING FROM? HAVE THEY BREACHED A CONTRACT? STOLEN A DOG? AND DON'T WANT ANYBODY TO FIND OUT? COULD THE DOG BE REGISTERED IF THEY WERE "HONEST" AND ABIDED BY CONTRACTS THEY SIGNED? IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE, WHY HIDE IT? BE PROUD OF YOUR KENNEL AND DOGS :)

MANY AKC SHOW BREEDERS GO ON ABOUT HAVING CONTRACTS AND HOW UNETHICAL IT IS NOT TO. IN FACT THEY SPEND MUCH TIME AND ENERGY BASHING CERTAIN PEOPLE FOR THIS WHILE BOWING AT THE FEET OF MY FORMER CO-OWNER OF DRAKYI TIMBERLINE MOXIE. HE NEVER WROTE A CONTRACT (EXPLAINED BELOW) AND WHEN I HAD TO ASK HIM WHAT COOWNED MEANT WHEN MY PUPPY MONTHS OLD; HE FINALLY SENT A SHORT EMAIL. LATER HE BREACHED HIS EMAIL SIMPLY BECAUSE I WAS CONVERSING WITH THE NON AKC BREEDER HE DID NOT LIKEI WOULD HIGHLY ADVISE ANYBODY FROM DEALING WITH AN AKC SHOW BREEDER BASED ON MY EXPERIENCES WITH THEiR HYPOCRISY AND NASTINESS.

Based on my experiences with serveral breeders I do not recommend AKC breeders who breed multiple breeds and multiple litters. From my experiences I have found that AKC show breeders who do nothing but breed dogs for a living have lots of money riding on dogs and they seem to breed for looks rather than anything else. I have formed these opinions based on my direct experiences with these types and owning their dogs. I would stay as far away from these types of breeders as possible. Remember a dog bred for the show ring may not be the healthiest or best example of the breed. Often times "not". Read about Uri's Demodex, her breeder, and her pedigree here.

Breeders will co-own dogs in order to have their co-owner whelp puppies so they may excuse themselves of all responsibility in case something goes wrong. In my case, I was to "owe" my co-owner two puppies back. I met another person who he did this to; and because of speculated health issues with the puppies; he instructed her to spay and neuter the whole litter (except his two picks and a friend's). This was a huge expense for the person who had whelped the puppies and only an advantage to my former co-owner. This will continue to happen as long as innocent people become their victims.

Going to shows I was surprised to discover that "show people" will use products to alter the color and thickness of the dog's coat. Tibetan Mastiffs are to be shown in their natural coats but this doesn't seem to be the case. Again, I think that people who make a "living" off selling puppies will go to extremes for "appearances"

"Blaming the victim" is prevalent within the Tibetan Mastiff community. These are my thoughts based on my experiences with "AKC Show breeders". I believe they want to "get rid of the competition". I would definitely stay clear of "AKC show breeders" because of what I have learned from them personally. "Show breeders will be very nice to 'newbies," but they are cut-throat; just like the movie "Best in Show"! It is very disgusting to see how people treat others.

Show breeders will promise you the world to co-own. They are just looking for someone to use shall we say as a "incubator". They may give you the dog but they retain ultimate control over the dog, in some cases, breeding it, then having the co-owner whelp the puppies while reaping profit from the pick of the litter.

Some things to think about. I hope that I can save someone else the time, money and heart ache that I went through. Number one thing to remember is that as the co-owner you ultimately are responsible for anything that can go wrong. These long time show breeders seem to live by - "Profit is sweet, even if it comes from deception."

If you are looking for a great pet with a far superior temperament, look past the AKC show crowd and I believe you will be far better off and much happier! Follow the money > AKC hondlers pay $250.00 a year > They are paid a lot of money to run around the ring < they bring in entries by having clients > people stay in hotels > vendors sell food and good , etc. etc. One hand greasing the other. How long do you think somebody would pay a professional handler if they were not winning in the ring? Think about it.

Co-ownership - My experience The following was our original agreement WHICH I HAD TO ASK FOR 6 MONTHS "AFTER" TAKING POSSESSION OF PUPPY:

Hi Charlie,

I didn't want you to take my question about co-ownership the wrong way or anything. I just don't remember asking how it works.

Mary

On Jun 18, 2011, at 8:37 PM, Charles wrote:

No problem, it works any way we want it too. I always do it this way. She is your dog unless you can’t keep her, then she’s mine. You can’t sell, give her way, euthanize, or spay without my approval, unless mortal injuries make waiting for me inhumane. I always try to go along with what the residential owner wants. If anything happens to either one of us ownership passes to the other without any compensation to heirs. Now on to breeding arrangements. The first litter is to the male of my choice and I pay any fees. I get first pick, you get the rest. The second litter is to the male of your choice and I get second pick. The rest are yours. After that there is nothing due me and she is your dog. If she has turned into some hot show dog, I would like to remain as a co-owner of record but it would be just to get a little reflected glory and if I wanted anything else out of her we would renegotiate it just like a breeding agreement.

If this sounds ok, I will save it just so we can remember what it was.

Charlie

THIS WAS THE RE WRITTEN AGREEMENT AFTER THE DOG WAS WELL OVER ONE YEAR OLD. YOU ARE AT SOMEBODY ELSE'S MERCY AND WHIM. EXTREMELY IMATURE AND CHILDISH IN MY OPINION, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THEY RE WROTE THE AGREEMENT BECAUSE I BOUGHT A PUPPY FROM SOMEBODY THEY DID NOT LIKE. HOW WOULD YOU LIKE YOUR CONTRACT CHANGED? ADDITIONALLY, I WAS NEVER TOLD THERE WAS A THIRD PARTY INVOLVED IN THE CONTRACT BUT AS YOU CAN SEE; SOMEBODY ELSE WAS IN CONTROL.

Final version. Mary I added a sentence on stud fees for both litters. Consider this the final version and ignore the other one.

Hi Mary,

This is the ownership contract I drew up. Rick has settled down and is fine with it. If anything is unclear or you want to discuss it give me a call this afternoon. I have several vital calls to make ASAP and Rick ran my phone down so waiting to recharge then I will probably run it down again.

FUNNY I WAS NEVER TOLD THAT THIS AKC "PROVISIONAL" JUDGE WAS PART OF MY "DEAL" WITH CHARLIE. WHY IS THAT? ISN'T THAT DECEPTIVE? IS IT BECAUSE THIS PERSON "BEHIND" THE CONTRACT DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE THEIR NAME INVOLVED IN THESE DEALS? WHY? NOW I KNOW BETTER AND IT IS MY HOPE THAT EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT THE AKC IS NOT A SIGN OF QUALITY, OR INTEGRITY IN MY OPINION BASED ON MY VERY OWN EXPERIENCES WITH IT'S HIGH VOLUME SHOW BREEDERS AND "PROVISIONAL" JUDGES. IT'S EXACTLY WHY I AM AFRAID OF THE AKC. BY REGISTERING WITH THE AKC; I AM AFRAID IT WILL "ALLOW" THEM TO COME DOWN ON ME FOR NO REASON LIKE THEY DID TO MY FRIEND OF KESANG CAMP WHERE I HAVE GOTTEN MY BEST DOGS.

If everything is OK as it stands, print two copies, sign and date them and next time we get together bring them down so I can sign and date them. Hopefully this will settle the issue and Ron will become quiet and reasonable for the duration of your ownership on your new puppy too.

CharlieOwnership Contract on Drakyi Moxie of Timberline, A gold Tibetan Mastiff

The primary owner is designated as Mary . The secondary owner (co-owner) is Charles. The dog Moxie will live, for her lifetime, with the primary owner. Moxie cannot be sold or placed in another home without the approval of the co-owner. If no approval of a second home can be agreed upon and the dog has to be placed for unforeseen reasons she will go to the co-owner. Co-ownership will last for the lifetime of the dog or co-owner.

Duties and responsibilities

The primary owner will be responsible for all expenses for Moxie, including food, medical, and show expenses. She will x-ray the hips and elbows, when appropriate, and then continue showing Moxie until her championship is complete if the hips are normal.

The co-owner is entitled to pick the stud dog for the first litter and to take the first pick puppy. All others will be the property of the primary owner.

The primary owner will pick the stud for the second litter and the co-owner is entitled to the 2nd pick puppy. All others will be the property of the primary owner. Stud fees provided by the co-owner.

After the co-owner has taken his second puppy there is no more obligation on the primary owner for any further financial remuneration (including puppies). Stud fees provided by the primary owner.

Both parties agree on one stipulation. There will be no stud services or puppies purchased, sold, or exchanged between the primary owner and Ron Bombliss of Kesang Camp Tibetan mastiffs with regard to this dog only.

Signed Primary owner, Mary ___________________________

Signed Co-owner, Charles _____________________________


Does this sound fair? After paying $1000.00 for an average dog + shipping, I was now expected to give two puppies in return, pay all medical expenses, and show fees!. This would total in excess of 6 or $7000.00. No I would never be a stupid as I was then and hopefully this little bit of "education" can save somebody else the same heartbreak and money.


BECAUSE I HAD BOUGHT A PUPPY AND WAS SPEAKING WITH WITH A BREEDER THEY DID NOT LIKE; THEY REFUSED TO HONOR OUR ORIGNIAL CONTRACT AND STATED THAT THEY WOULD REFUSE TO SIGN OFF ON ANY LITTERS IF I WAS TO CONTINUE TO DEAL WITH THIS BREEDER. (I CAN FORWARD EMAILS TO YOU). I WAS PERFORMING MY PART OF THE CONTRACT ABOVE AND BEYOND. I WENT OVERBOARD TO BE NICE TO THIS PERSON. WE BROUGHT A FREEZER TO HIS HOME, PICKED UP AND DELIEVERED CABLE SPOOLS FOR HIS DOGS, BUILT A WEB SITE FOR THEM, AND OUR FAMILY SPENT MANY HOURS VISITING WITH THEM AT THEIR HOME. WE PAID ALL EXPENSES - VET, SHOW, HANDLER FEES, ETC. FINALLY, WHY DO THESE PEOPLE BASH THIS BREEDER AND PUT STUPID STIPULATIONS ABOUT THEM IN THEIR CONTRACT? WHY DO THEY GO TO SUCH EXTREMES TO GET AND BREED THEIR DOGS? WHY DO THEY TELL LIES ABOUT THEM AND USE THEIR DOUBLE STANDARDS REGARDING EVERYTHING THEY SAY ABOUT THEM? PERSONALLY, I AM THINKING BECAUSE THEY ARE SMART ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT AKC AND THAT CROWD IS ALL "SMOKE AND MIRRORS". AGAIN, ALL BASED ON MY DIRECT EXPERIENCES AND MY OWN PERSONAL OPINIONS.

IN THE END I WAS GLADTHAT I SURRENDED THE DRAYKI BRED GIRL BACK TO THEM BECAUSE IT WAS A VERY BAD CONTRACT TO BEGIN WITH. BECAUSE I WAS NEW TO THE BREED I DID NOT REALIZE THAT I WAS BEING "TAKEN TO THE BANK". I DID LEARN THAT I WILL NEVER EVER WANT ONE OF THEIR DOGS AGAIN, FOR MANY REASONS. I WAS THE TYPE OF PERSON PEOPLE LIKE THAT TEND TO PREY ON. "THE PERFECT VICTIM". HOW AKC BREEDERS|JUDGES CAN HAVE SUCH DOUBLE STANDARDS TO ME SHOWS THEIR TRUE COLORS. THEY WILL MAKE UP STUFF ABOUT NON AKC SHOW BREEDERS, INUENDOS, ETC.; ALL THE WHILE SCHEMING OF WAYS TO GET AND USE THEIR LINES THROUGH THE BACK DOOR. THIS SHOWS THEIR CHARACTER TO ME. I RESPECT PEOPLE WHO GO DIRECTLY TO SOMEBODY INSTEAD OF BEHIND THE BACK AND THEN BACKSTAB TYPE. BUT HEY, THAT IS JUST MY OPINION.

Finally, I find it rather childish that grown ups can act like high schoolers and require somebody not to talk to somebody they do not like. How professional is that? I was performing the contract above and beyond our original agreement which was one sided. Having somebody pay for a dog, medical expenses, and show fees while you act as if you are some sort of ethical, resposible breeder is puzzling to me. I view this as extortion and a way to have others "whelp" litters so that you appear to be something you are not. I am guessing this is a way not to appear as having too many puppies per year at the expense of others. By having others do it for them, they eliminate the label and all responsible.

A few quotes:

"Forgot to tell you, _ _ _ k took my description of _ s _ s _ i off TM info. He's doing a breeding with _ _ n _ s _. C _ e w _ _ _ _ a this year, guess he didn't want anyone to see he threw a 55 lb pup, cow-howcked and very inferior. K _ _ _ _ os a beautiful girl and I don't want any problems, so my mouth is shut. I'll let it go, he could take k _ _ _ _ _ away from me, like what happended to Mary Holzer. Anyway . . . UNQUOTE.

So should you believe them? I know I do not, especially based on what they say behind the scenes.

And there is so much more behing the show breeders and their deceptions.

I THOUGHT THE BREEDER OF MY CO-OWNED MOXIE WAS AN AKC JUDGE AND WITH THAT I MISTAKENLY THOUGHT THAT IS A SIGN OF INTEGRITY, HONESTY, AND QUALITY. BOY WAS I WRONG! MY BEST DOGS CAME FROM KESANG CAMP. KESANG CAMP ARE THE DOGS THESE TYPE OF PEOPLE GET THROUGH ALIASES AND OR BY HAVING OTHER PEOPLE BUY THEM. WHY? SO THEY CAN GET THE BEST DOGS TO FIX ALL THE INBRED DISEASES IN THEIR OWN LINES AND THEN TRASH KESANG CAMP WITH LIES, AND SLANDER. WHY DOES THE AKC DO NOTHING? I BELEIVE IT IS BECAUSE KESANG CAMP DID THE RIGHT THING AND STARTED BOYCOTTING IT BECAUSE OF ALL THE CORRUPTION AND DECEPTIVE BREEDERS. I HAVE WATCHED AS THE AKC LETS IT'S HIGH VOLUME BREEDERS GET AWAY WITH PEDIGREE FRAUD, AND MUCH, MUCH MORE. WHEN I FIRST GOT INTO THE BREED AND FOSTERED PUPPIES, I HAD ACCUMULATED TOO MANY. I SOLD ONE OF THE PUPPIES I BOUGHT FROM A DECEASED BREEDER BECAUSE I DID NOT WANT TO HAVE A BROTHER AND SISTER. I DID NOT WANT TO HAVE AN ACCIDENT. THE PERSON WAS TOLD NOT TO BREED HER AND DID NOT PAY FOR HER. I WAS AWAITING PAYMENT WHEN I GOT A NASTY EMAIL FROM THE TM RESCUE ACCUSING ME OF A BREEDING I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH. TURNS OUT THE GUY BRED THE GIRL TO HER HALF BROTHER AND A VERY DYSPLASTIC PUPPY WOUND UP IN THE SHELTER. BECAUSE THE AKC DID NOT BOTHER TO VERIFY MY "FORGED" SIGNATURE ON THE REGISTRATION; THEY BLAMED ME! AKC NEVER BOTHERED TO EMAIL ME AT THE EMAIL ON FILE WITH THEM, NEVER BOTHERED TO CHECK ANYTHING. JUST TOOK THE MONEY AND REGISTERED THE DOG! THEY DID THIS TO KESANG CAMP AND SIGNED OVER A LITTER WITHOUT A SIGNATURE AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!! SO WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? IT MEANS YOUR DOG COULD BE STOLEN AND AKC DOES NOTHING TO STOP IT. THE AKC SAYS IT DOES NOT DETERMINE OWNERSHIP. REALLY? ISN'T THIS WHAT THEY ARE DOING BY SIGNING YOUR DOG OVER TO SOMEONE ELSE WITH OR WITHOUT YOUR PERMISSION? I ASKED THEM TO COMPARE MY DOG'S DNA TO A LITTER REGISTERED BY ONE OF THEIR HIGH VOLUME BREEDER'S LITTER TO CONFIRM THE PEDIGREE AND THEY WOULD NOT DO IT. THEY SAID I NEEDED THE PERMISSION OF THE PERSON WHO REGISTERED THE ALLEGED INACCURATE PEDIGREE. REALLY? ISN'T THAT LIKE ASKING A CROOK TO RETURN STOLEN GOODS? NO BASED ON MY EXPERIENCES THE AKC IS NOT A REGISTRY OF INTEGRITY OR ACCURACY. IT SEEMS TO SIDE ONLY WITH IT'S HIGH VOLUME BREEDERS WHO SUPPLY THEM WITH TONS OF REGISTRATION DOLLARS. THAT IS WHY I AM ACTUALLY AFRAID TO REGISTER MY DOGS WITH THEM. I AM AFRAID MY DOGS CAN BE STOLEN LEAVING ME WITH NO RECOURSE, NO SUPPORT, OR EVEN LEAVING MYSELF OPEN TO RETALIATION BY THE AKC :(. I HAVE FOUND THAT THE WORSE OFFENDERS ARE THE JERKS WHO PORTRAY THEMSELVES AS "JUDGES" WHEN IN REALITY THEY ARE ONLY "PROVISTIONAL" JUDGES (like the breeder of my formerly owned dog) THAT ONLY REQUIRE PAYING A FEE AND AN "OPEN BOOK" QUIZ. DOG CRAP TO ME!!!!!

HERE IS THE EMAIL FROM THE RESCUE:

From: J M <l.com>
To:r <.com>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 10:19 PM
Subject: Re: Tibetan Mastiff puppy.


Thank you so much for responding, this whole situation seems to just be a mess now. The registration papers that I have are still in your name and apparently someone else has signed your name to the back of them, which is why I contacted you. I have also  contacted TM rescue and we are in the process of hopefully working to find a solution now. Hopefully we can find Zeus a forever home that will appreciate him and he will be taken care of. I wanted to get in touch with you because the person that I received zeus from had said that whoever his breeder was had wanted to have him put down because of his hips and that just sounded kind of odd to me.
I am hoping that this is the right step to take for the big goof ball, he really has the potential to be a great dog.
Thank you again for replying!

From: J M <il.com>
To:<o.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2012 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: Tibetan Mastiff puppy.


,
The person I received zeus from is the one that had told me all of this. When I asked why she wouldnt return the dog to the breeder is when I was told about the breeder wanting to put him down. I do not know if this is true or not, which is why I wanted to actually talk to whoever it was on my own. I do know that this same lady lied to me about several other things to get me to take the dog, so it is very possible that none of that is true.
His hips are bad, horrible actually. I took him to the vet on monday and he said that the only fix would most likely be a total hip replacement. It doesn't seem to hurt him at all-american but it does kind of limit his activity.
He has severe separation anxiety. Has torn out every screen in my house to try to get outside and chewed off part of my door (even though I was just in the backyard and he could see me). He does not like big men, find them very threatening especially at night.
We are working very hard to be patient with him and try to teach him that it is ok to be a puppy and have fun. I an sure all will be fine with a little bit of time and a lot of patience.

 

From: C <chnet>
> > Subject: Re: 201201194
> > To: "r" <m>
> > Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2012, 5:52 PM
> >
> >,
> > The AKC paperwork for Zues has you as the breeder and you as the owner and that you signed him over to A C with your signature.    Is your signature online anywhere to see if it's the same or different?
> > R
I NEVER SIGNED A LITTER APPLICATION BECAUSE I DID NOT HAVE THE GIRL FOR MORE THAN A YEAR, DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THE LITTER OR THAT SHE HAD EVEN BEEN BRED YET THE AKC JUST SIGNED OVER THE LITTER AND PUPPIES WITH A FORGED SIGNATURE THEY NEVER EVEN BOTHERED TO VERIFY LEAVING ME TO TAKE THE BLAME!!!!! SO WHAT ELSE DOES THIS MEAN? IT APPEARS TO ME BASED ON MY EXPERIENCES THAT AKC DOES NOT VERIFY SIGNATURES OR PEDIGREES. SO HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE BREEDING? IS IT A BROTHER AND SISTER WITH HEALTH ISSUES? THERE ARE MANY, MANY, QUESTIONS THAT SEEM TO BE LEFT UNANSWERED OR IGNORED.

WHICH BRINGS US TO A LARGER PROBLEM. MANY PEOPLE LIKE THIS GUY BUY TWO TIBETAN MASTIFFS WITH NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE HEALTH OF THE PEDIGREES. THEY ONLY HAVE VISIONS OF MAKING A QUICK BUCK. THIS GUY BRED A HALF BROTHER AND HALF SISTER OUT OF LINES KNOWN FOR HEALTH ISSUES AND THIS POOR PUPPY WINDS UP IN THE RESCUE WITH VERY BAD HIPS.

EDUCATE YOURSELF AND BE WARY OF SOMEONE WHO HAS ONLY OWNED TIBETAN MASTIFFS FOR A FEW YEARS AND BRED THE FIRST TWO THEY GOT.

I PERSONALLY DO NOT THINK THAT AN AKC REGISTERED DOG IS A SIGN OF QUALITY OR OR A PEDIGREE OF ACCURACY. AKC IS OUT TO MAKE MONEY AND AS ILLUSTRATED ABOVE; THEY PRETTY MUCH REGISTER ANYTHING WITHOUT VERIFYING THE INFORMATION. THE DO NOT REQUIRE HEALTH TESTING, MICRO CHIPPING, OR HAVING DNA ON FILE BEFORE BREEDINGS TAKE PLACE.

BASED ON MY EXPERIENCES, I HAVE FOUND THE "PROVISIONAL" JUDGES ARE SOME OF THE WORST. THEY PREY ON "NEWBIES" AND TRY TO HAVE EVERYTHING COME EASY. REMEMBER, A "PROVISIONAL" JUDGE IS NOTHING SPECIAL. FROM WHAT I HAVE BEEN TOLD IT, ANYBODY CAN BE A "PROVISIONAL" JUDGE BY MERELY PAYING A FEE TO AKC AND TAKING AN "OPEN BOOK" TEST. THIS IS THE ILLUSION OF QUALITY THE AKC PROMOTES IN MY OPINION. THESE TYPES OF PEOPLE WILL GET THE DOGS OF GOOD BREEDERS THROUGH DECEPTIVE PRACTICES. THEY DON'T LIKE TO WORK. I AM OF THE OPINION THAT THEY LIVE OFF OF DECEPTION AND OTHER PEOPLE'S DEDICATION AND LOVE OF THE BREED. I DO NOT RECOMMEND BUYING A PUPPY FROM A "NEWBIE" OR AN AKC "SHOW BREEDER" UNLESS THEY HEALTH TEST, MICRO CHIP, AND PUT DNA ON FILE FOR THEIR BREEDING PAIRS "BEFORE" THEY BREED THEM. BASED ON WHAT I HAVE SEEN, I WOULD NEVRE TRUST THAT MANY OF THEIR PEDIGREES ARE ACCURATE. ONE SHOW BREEDER ACTUALLY SOLD ANOTHER BREEDER'S DOG WITHOUT HIS PERMISSION OR KNOWLEDGE. MANY PEOPLE FEEL THAT THIS IS WHAT ONE WOULD CALL "STEALING".

FINALLY, BASED ON MY VERY OWN EXPERIENCES, I HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE AKC CREATES COMPETITION THAT LEADS TO CORRUPTION. FOLLOW THE MONEY!!!

ANOTHER CASE OF THE AKC DETERMINING OWNERSHIP?

I HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT THE AKC IS ONLY A "REGISTRY" OR "RECORDER" OF DOGS. I TAKE THIS TO MEAN THEY RECORD PEDIGREES AND OWNERS. I WOULD ASSUME THAT THIS MEANS IF SOMEONE SENDS IN A FEE WITH SIGNED PERMISSION TO TRANSFER A DOG, THEIR ONLY JOB IS TO PROCESS THE "RECORD" OF TRANSFER. BASED ON MY KNOWLEDGE FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCES; I SERIOUSLY QUESTION ANY OF THEIR CLAIMS BECAUSE THEY HAVE REFUSED TO DO WHAT THEY CLAIM IS THEIR ONLY JOB AS DOCUMENTED BELOW.

A SIGNED TRANSFER BY THE OWNER AND THE THE PERSON TO WHICH THE DOG WAS TO BE TRANSFERRED WAS SUBMITTED TO THE AKC ALONG WITH A "TRANSFER FEE". AKC REFUSED TO TRANSFER THE DOG EVEN THOUGH THEIR REQUIREMENTS WERE MET. THEY STATED THAT SINCE THE OWNER AND PERSON THE DOG WAS TO BE TRANSFERRED TO WERE NOT IN POSSESSION OF THE DOG; THEY COULD NOT DO IT. THEY "CLAIMED" THAT WOULD BE DETERMINING OWNERSHIP? I HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT THEY ARE ONLY THE "RECORD KEEPERS", WHICH I UNDERSTAND TO BE THE "RECORDING" OF EVENTS IN THEIR REGISTRY, NOT DETERMINING OWNERSHIP? I UNDERSTAND THEIR "REFUSAL" TO "RECORD" THE EVENT IS DETMINING OWNERSHIP, BECAUSE THEY SPECIFICALLY SITED THE PERSON WAS "NOT IN POSSESSION" OF SAID DOG. IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THE ONLY THING THEY CLAIM THEY DO IS TO KEEP A "RECORD" OF PEDIGREES AND OWNERS. IT SEEMS TO ME THE AKC DOES DETERMINE OWNERSHIP AND BECAUSE OF THIS; I BELIEVE ANYBODY'S DOG CAN BE STOLEN BECAUSE OF THEIR ACTIONS. THIS IS HOW I UNDERSTAND IT. IF ANYBODY ELSE HAS A BETTER EXPLANATION AND CAN HELP ME UNDERSTAND THIS BETTER, I WELCOME YOUR EMAILS.

SILKBOW LETTER

Constructive Possession

Constructive possession is a legal theory used to extend possession to situations where a person has no hands-on custody of an object. Most courts say that constructive possession, also sometimes called "possession in law," exists where a person has knowledge of an object plus the ability to control the object, even if the person has no physical contact with it (United States v. Derose, 74 F.3d 1177 [11th Cir. 1996]). For example, people often keep important papers and other valuable items in a bank safety deposit box. Although they do not have actual physical custody of these items, they do have knowledge of the items and the ability to exercise control over them. Thus, under the doctrine of constructive possession, they are still considered in possession of the contents of their safety deposit box. Constructive possession is frequently used in cases involving criminal possession.

AND IT GETS WORSE!!! A LITTER WAS REGISTERED TO A KESANG CAMP WITHOUT ANY SIGNATURE AT ALL!! NONE ABSOLUTELY NONE!! NOT EVEN A FORGED ONE LIKE MINE WAS. TALK ABOUT NEGLECTING YOUR REPSONSIBILITIES :( HE HAD NOT REGISTERED A LITTER OR DOG WITH THEM IN TWO YEARS BECAUSE HE WAS BOYCOTTING THEM AND HAD ASKED TO HAVE HIS DOGS REMOVED FROM THE REGISTRY. DO YOU BELIEVE IT?

SO MY FEARS ARE THAT AKC "COULD" AND HAS TRANSFERRED DOGS WITH AND WITHOUT THE REQUIRED SIGNATURES AS I HAVE PERSONALLY EXPERIENCED AND SEEN THEM DO IN OTHER INSTANCES. HOW MANY TIMES WITHOUT THE OWNER'S KNOWLEDGE HAVE THEY DONE THIS? IT JUST HAPPENED THAT I WAS BEING WRONGFULLY "BLAMED" BY THE RESCUE THAT I HAPPENED TO FIND OUT THAT IT APPEARED THE AKC DETERMINED OWNERSHIP OF A LITTER AND A DOG WITH ONLY MY FORGED SIGNATURE AND WITHOUT MY KNOWLEDGE. GEE, YOU THINK THEY COULD HAVE EMAILED A QUICK VERIFICATION TO MY EMAIL ON FILE? COULD IT HAPPEN TO YOU? COULD YOU BE FINED AND SUSPENEDED BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT REGISTERED 100% OF YOUR PUPPIES WITH THEM? IT "APPEARS" THAT IS WHY KESANG CAMP WAS SUSPENDED. WHY DO I FEEL THAT WAY? BECAUSE I HAVE SEEN THEM GIVE HIGH VOLUME SHOW BREEDERS A "PASS" FOR NOT OPENING THEIR RECORDS TO AKC, WHILE SUSPENDING AND FINING KESANG CAMP EVEN THOUGH HE HAD NOT REGISTERED A DOG WITH THEM IN OVER TWO YEARS. SO IS THE AKC LIKE THE HOTEL CALIFORNIA? WHERE YOU CAN "CHECK IN ANYTIME YOUR WANT; BUT YOU MAY NEVER LEAVE"? SOME THINGS TO THINK ABOUT BEFORE YOU REGISTER YOUR DOGS WITH AKC. IS IT REALLY A REGISTRY OF ACCURACY? OR INTEGRITY? OR IS THE COMPETITION OF DOG SHOWING A PIPELINE TO CORRUPTION? I KNOW I HAVE MADE MY DECISIONS BASED ON MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES AND I AM CHOOSING NOT TO WASTE MY MONEY IN EXCHANGE FOR WHAT I FEEL IS AN ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS PIECE OF PAPER. MIGHT AS WELL JUST WIPE MY FANNY WITH ONE OF THOSE AKC REGISTRATIONS. THAT'S HOW I FEEL. I BELIEVE THAT THE AKC IS IN PART RESPONSIBLE BY THEIR ACTIONS TO THE SLANDER OF MANY INNOCENT PARTIES. BY GIVING A LIAR "CREDIBILITY" THEY ARE PROMOTING SLANDER AND CRIMIMAL BEHAVIORS. AT LEAST THAT IS HOW I "FEEL" ABOUT IT. I KNOW I HAVE ENDURED SLANDER BY MANY OF THESE DECEPTIVE AKC BREEDERS AND I HAVE THE EMAILS OF HOW THEY HAVE LIED AND SLANDERED KESANG CAMP TO GET HIS MUCH HEALTHIER LINES IN THEIR PEDIGREES BY "RECORD" OR NOT. SO YOU DECIDE. IS YOUR REGISTRATION PAPER ACCURATE? HOW DO YOU KNOW? THE ONLY WAY TO KNOW IS IF THE DOGS HAVE BEEN MICRO CHIPPED AND HAVE DNA ON FILE. YOU MAY JUST BE GETTING SOME SICK, UNHEALTHY LINES WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING IT. THE AKC "CLAIMS" IT DOES NOT DETERMINE OWNERSHIP YET THEY HAVE REQUESTED COPIES OF CONTRACTS IN ORDER TO DENY OR REGISTER A DOG. HOW IS THAT NOT DETERMINING OWNERSHIP? YOU MIGHT FEEL LIKE YOU GOT SOMETHING FOR YOUR 35.00 REGISTRATION FEE IF THE AKC WOULD JUST DO IT'S JOB AND "RECORD" DOGS AND TRANSFERS, NOT UNDERMINE YOUR OWNERSHIP BY REFUSING OR REGISTERING A DOG TO A LIAR OR CRIMINALS. JUST FOLLOW THE AKC MONEY TRAIL OF COMPETITION AND DECEPTION.

I BELIEVE ALL THIS STUFF WOULD STOP IF THE AKC ACTUALLY VERIFIED IT'S "RECORDS". I ALSO BELIEVE THAT THE MOST HORRIBLE PEOPLE ARE THE ONES WHO LIE AND SLANDER OTHERS TO EXPLOIT DOGS FOR MONEY. IF PEOPLE WERE HONEST AND THE AKC DID IT'S JOB PERHAPS PEOPLE MIGHT ACTUALLY BETTER THE BREED. FROM WHAT I SEE THIS IS NOT GOING TO GET ANY BETTER UNTIL THE AKC REQUIRES DNA ON FILE, MICROCHIP, AND HEALTH TESTING BEFORE BREEDINGS AND PEOPLE CAN ONLY SHOW THEIR OWN DOGS LIKE THE UKC.

 

CO-OWNERSHIP - IS IT A LIABILITY?

MANY AKC SHOW BREEDERS GO ON ABOUT HAVING CONTRACTS AND HOW UNETHICAL IT IS NOT TO. IN FACT THEY SPEND MUCH TIME AND ENERGY BASHING CERTAIN PEOPLE FOR THIS WHILE BOWING AT THE FEET OF MY FORMER CO-OWNER OF DRAKYI TIMBERLINE MOXIE. HE NEVER WROTE A CONTRACT (EXPLAINED BELOW) AND WHEN I HAD TO ASK HIM WHAT COOWNED MEANT WHEN MY PUPPY MONTHS OLD; HE FINALLY SENT A SHORT EMAIL. LATER HE BREACHED HIS EMAIL SIMPLY BECAUSE I WAS CONVERSING WITH THE NON AKC BREEDER HE DID NOT LIKEI WOULD HIGHLY ADVISE ANYBODY FROM DEALING WITH AN AKC SHOW BREEDER BASED ON MY EXPERIENCES WITH THEiR HYPOCRISY AND NASTINESS.

Based on my experiences with serveral breeders I do not recommend AKC breeders who breed multiple breeds and multiple litters. From my experiences I have found that AKC show breeders who do nothing but breed dogs for a living have lots of money riding on dogs and they seem to breed for looks rather than anything else. I have formed these opinions based on my direct experiences with these types and owning their dogs. I would stay as far away from these types of breeders as possible. Remember a dog bred for the show ring may not be the healthiest or best example of the breed. Often times "not". Read about Uri's Demodex, her breeder, and her pedigree here.

Going to shows I was surprised to discover that "show people" will use products to alter the color and thickness of the dog's coat. Tibetan Mastiffs are to be shown in their natural coats but this doesn't seem to be the case. Again, I think that people who make a "living" off selling puppies will go to extremes for "appearances"

"Blaming the victim" is prevalent within the Tibetan Mastiff community. These are my thoughts based on my experiences with "AKC Show breeders". I believe they want to "get rid of the competition". I would definitely stay clear of "AKC show breeders" because of what I have learned from them personally. "Show breeders will be very nice to 'newbies," but they are cut-throat; just like the movie "Best in Show"! It is very disgusting to see how people treat others.

Show breeders will promise you the world to co-own. They are just looking for someone to use shall we say as a "incubator". They may give you the dog but they retain ultimate control over the dog, in some cases, breeding it, then having the co-owner whelp the puppies while reaping profit from the pick of the litter.

Some things to think about. I hope that I can save someone else the time, money and heart ache that I went through. Number one thing to remember is that as the co-owner you ultimately are responsible for anything that can go wrong. These long time show breeders seem to live by - "Profit is sweet, even if it comes from deception."

If you are looking for a great pet with a far superior temperament, look past the AKC show crowd and I believe you will be far better off and much happier! Follow the money > AKC hondlers pay $250.00 a year > They are paid a lot of money to run around the ring < they bring in entries by having clients > people stay in hotels > vendors sell food and good , etc. etc. One hand greasing the other. How long do you think somebody would pay a professional handler if they were not winning in the ring? Think about it.

Co-ownership - My experience The following was our original agreement:

Hi Charlie,

I didn't want you to take my question about co-ownership the wrong way or anything. I just don't remember asking how it works.

Mary

On Jun 18, 2011, at 8:37 PM, Charles wrote:
No problem, it works any way we want it too. I always do it this way. She is your dog unless you can’t keep her, then she’s mine. You can’t sell, give her way, euthanize, or spay without my approval, unless mortal injuries make waiting for me inhumane. I always try to go along with what the residential owner wants. If anything happens to either one of us ownership passes to the other without any compensation to heirs. Now on to breeding arrangements. The first litter is to the male of my choice and I pay any fees. I get first pick, you get the rest. The second litter is to the male of your choice and I get second pick. The rest are yours. After that there is nothing due me and she is your dog. If she has turned into some hot show dog, I would like to remain as a co-owner of record but it would be just to get a little reflected glory and if I wanted anything else out of her we would renegotiate it just like a breeding agreement.

If this sounds ok, I will save it just so we can remember what it was.

Charlie

THIS WAS THE RE WRITTEN AGREEMENT AFTER THE DOG WAS WELL OVER ONE YEAR OLD. YOU ARE AT SOMEBODY ELSE'S MERCY AND WHIM. EXTREMELY IMATURE AND CHILDISH IN MY OPINION, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THEY RE WROTE THE AGREEMENT BECAUSE I BOUGHT A PUPPY FROM SOMEBODY THEY DID NOT LIKE. HOW WOULD YOU LIKE YOUR CONTRACT CHANGED?

Final version. Mary I added a sentence on stud fees for both litters. Consider this the final version and ignore the other one.

Hi Mary,

This is the ownership contract I drew up. Rick has settled down and is fine with it. If anything is unclear or you want to discuss it give me a call this afternoon. I have several vital calls to make ASAP and Rick ran my phone down so waiting to recharge then I will probably run it down again.

If everything is OK as it stands, print two copies, sign and date them and next time we get together bring them down so I can sign and date them. Hopefully this will settle the issue and Ron will become quiet and reasonable for the duration of your ownership on your new puppy too.

CharlieOwnership Contract on Drakyi Moxie of Timberline, A gold Tibetan Mastiff

The primary owner is designated as Mary . The secondary owner (co-owner) is Charles. The dog Moxie will live, for her lifetime, with the primary owner. Moxie cannot be sold or placed in another home without the approval of the co-owner. If no approval of a second home can be agreed upon and the dog has to be placed for unforeseen reasons she will go to the co-owner. Co-ownership will last for the lifetime of the dog or co-owner.
Duties and responsibilities
The primary owner will be responsible for all expenses for Moxie, including food, medical, and show expenses. She will x-ray the hips and elbows, when appropriate, and then continue showing Moxie until her championship is complete if the hips are normal.
The co-owner is entitled to pick the stud dog for the first litter and to take the first pick puppy. All others will be the property of the primary owner.
The primary owner will pick the stud for the second litter and the co-owner is entitled to the 2nd pick puppy. All others will be the property of the primary owner. Stud fees provided by the co-owner.
After the co-owner has taken his second puppy there is no more obligation on the primary owner for any further financial remuneration (including puppies). Stud fees provided by the primary owner.
Both parties agree on one stipulation. There will be no stud services or puppies purchased, sold, or exchanged between the primary owner and Ron Bombliss of Kesang Camp Tibetan mastiffs with regard to this dog only.
Signed Primary owner, Mary ___________________________
Signed Co-owner, Charles _____________________________

Does this sound fair? After paying $1000.00 for an average dog + shipping, I was now expected to give two puppies in return, pay all medical expenses, and show fees!. This would total in excess of 6 or $7000.00. No I would never be a stupid as I was then and hopefully this little bit of "education" can save somebody else the same heartbreak and money.

BECAUSE I HAD BOUGHT A PUPPY AND WAS SPEAKING WITH WITH A BREEDER THEY DID NOT LIKE; THEY REFUSED TO HONOR OUR ORIGNIAL CONTRACT AND STATED THAT THEY WOULD REFUSE TO SIGN OFF ON ANY LITTERS IF I WAS TO CONTINUE TO DEAL WITH THIS BREEDER. (I CAN FORWARD EMAILS TO YOU). I WAS PERFORMING MY PART OF THE CONTRACT ABOVE AND BEYOND. I WENT OVERBOARD TO BE NICE TO THIS PERSON. WE BROUGHT A FREEZER TO HIS HOME, PICKED UP AND DELIEVERED CABLE SPOOLS FOR HIS DOGS, BUILT A WEB SITE FOR THEM, AND OUR FAMILY SPENT MANY HOURS VISITING WITH THEM AT THEIR HOME. WE PAID ALL EXPENSES - VET, SHOW, HANDLER FEES, ETC. FINALLY, WHY DO THESE PEOPLE BASH THIS BREEDER AND PUT STUPID STIPULATIONS ABOUT THEM IN THEIR CONTRACT? WHY DO THEY GO TO SUCH EXTREMES TO GET AND BREED THEIR DOGS? WHY DO THEY TELL LIES ABOUT THEM AND USE THEIR DOUBLE STANDARDS REGARDING EVERYTHING THEY SAY ABOUT THEM? PERSONALLY, I AM THINKING BECAUSE THEY ARE SMART ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT AKC AND THAT CROWD IS ALL "SMOKE AND MIRRORS". AGAIN, ALL BASED ON MY DIRECT EXPERIENCES AND MY OWN PERSONAL OPINIONS.

IN THE END I WAS GLADTHAT I SURRENDED THE DRAYKI BRED GIRL BACK TO THEM BECAUSE IT WAS A VERY BAD CONTRACT TO BEGIN WITH. BECAUSE I WAS NEW TO THE BREED I DID NOT REALIZE THAT I WAS BEING "TAKEN TO THE BANK". I DID LEARN THAT I WILL NEVER EVER WANT ONE OF THEIR DOGS AGAIN, FOR MANY REASONS. I WAS THE TYPE OF PERSON PEOPLE LIKE THAT TEND TO PREY ON. "THE PERFECT VICTIM". HOW AKC BREEDERS|JUDGES CAN HAVE SUCH DOUBLE STANDARDS TO ME SHOWS THEIR TRUE COLORS. THEY WILL MAKE UP STUFF ABOUT NON AKC SHOW BREEDERS, INUENDOS, ETC.; ALL THE WHILE SCHEMING OF WAYS TO GET AND USE THEIR LINES THROUGH THE BACK DOOR. THIS SHOWS THEIR CHARACTER TO ME. I RESPECT PEOPLE WHO GO DIRECTLY TO SOMEBODY INSTEAD OF BEHIND THE BACK AND THEN BACKSTAB TYPE. BUT HEY, THAT IS JUST MY OPINION.

Finally, I find it rather childish that grown ups can act like high schoolers and require somebody not to talk to somebody they do not like. How professional is that? I was performing the contract above and beyond our original agreement which was one sided. Having somebody pay for a dog, medical expenses, and show fees while you act as if you are some sort of ethical, resposible breeder is puzzling to me. I view this as extortion and a way to have others "whelp" litters so that you appear to be something you are not. I am guessing this is a way not to appear as having too many puppies per year at the expense of others. By having others do it for them, they eliminate the label and all responsible.

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A few quotes:

"Forgot to tell you, _ _ _ k took my description of _ s _ s _ i off TM info. He's doing a breeding with _ _ n _ s _. C _ e w _ _ _ _ a this year, guess he didn't want anyone to see he threw a 55 lb pup, cow-howcked and very inferior. K _ _ _ _ os a beautiful girl and I don't want any problems, so my mouth is shut. I'll let it go, he could take k _ _ _ _ _ away from me, like what happended to Mary Holzer. Anyway . . . UNQUOTE.

So should you believe them? I know I do not, especially based on what they say behind the scenes.

And there is so much more behing the show breeders and their deceptions.